DaptoFunlandGuy

I'm not aware that the cracks were an ongoing problem, although I believe that was an issue after a lightning strike some time ago... Things to remember about Viper is that the track is 32 years old, and it lives in one of the most corrosive environments of any coaster in the world. From what I know and what i've heard, Management have made the commitment to keep Viper running at (almost) any cost knowing full well what the continued operation of the attraction would cost. The issues with it may require more regular maintenance. Now that we have storm, this should alleviate some of the pressure on the park and help them keep up with the preventative maintenance Viper sorely needs Just for clarity I want to go on record that if there are in fact ongoing issues with cracks in the track (and I don't know either way), they are by no means undermining the structural integrity of the track that would render it unsafe, or the park would not hesitate to shut it down. I just feel after MBA's comments that needed to be said.

I'm sure I read it somewhere else on the boards, but I can't find it. Construction well underway right now at AW at the back behind Redback and the Plunge. By the looks of things, we've got ourselves a star flyer (Obviously not this one, but one like it) They were in the process of building fixed steps, laying foundations for cement and general earthworks. There was also a tenative suggestion of the new Pinfari coaster they're putting in, but as yet - nothing has appeared on site for it. The project information said that the project was to commence 5/9/13 and complete 20/12/13... so they're a little behind! Since i'm here, a quick review ( i don't think it's worth creating a new thread) Front entrance ticket staff were extremely friendly, welcoming and helpful. 'opening times' - the park is open from 9am, where you can 'help yourself' to play putt putt. Rides open from 10am... or whenever the operator gets to the ride from the 'pre-opening meeting'... which could be 10... or 10:15. Putt Putt was a good way to kill some time - but a little upkeep on the 'greens' would have been nice. On a busy long weekend at the end of the school holidays, i'd have liked to have seen some of the leaf litter, sticks, and other crap cleared off the actual playing surface - even a leaf blower wouldn't have taken that long.... For my first ride on Redback and the Plunge, both were enjoyable (although I prefer Shockwave as an experience - but the ride envelope of redback was by far the cleaner of the two). Simple but nicely themed, it is a good sign of things to come. Rock'N'Roll Rebel is still one of my favourites at AW. It was disappointing that some of the scanners (moving mirror lights for the uneducated) were offline blown bulbs. It used to be one of their premier attractions and was maintained immaculately - not so much anymore. Wild mouse was being run by one operator. I never knew that that was possible - but essentially - with three cars on the track, he loads two, sends one up the lift hill while the other is held behind the pre-lift brake block. The third stays in the station, unattended and untouched, while he goes around to the unload, and stands by the brake lever waiting for the two to come around. Other parks have cut operations to save on staffing, but usually they've done it by improving the technology. LoadUnload may be slow, but at least it's constant. All the other old favourites - from the Booma Zooma, Mozzie Musta, Dodgems and the Voyager Simulator (Voyager has had a repaint and it looks good) - it's also great to see the large sunshade area in the middle... everything was looking good... ...except for the giant slide. It's the kind of attraction you see on level one in roller coaster tycoon that was constantly breaking down and catching fire... the last time I saw one of them was on an advertisement for El Caballo Blanco in like - 1986. It is however nice and neatly presented, showing minimal wear and tear, and hopefully is just a filler attraction until they improve their attraction base a bit more. With minimal queues (read:none) I found 2 rotations of the ferris wheel a little underwhelming. The 'town hall' cinema was open, with signage saying 'continuous showing - enter any time' - I walked in to find a nicely air-conditioned room... with no projection and absolute silence - a big thumbs down here - that an attraction listed as open (website said it was closed on 24/1/14 only) wasn't operating, and no attendant, sign or closed door to tell you it was down. Cafe staff were attentive and food was good for the simple fare they offered Gift shop staff carrying on a conversation best described as inappropriate in the staff room with the door open without even realising I was there was probably not a good look - stocking apparel marked as "XL" that was the same size as a 'children's size 6' needs looking at. Their polo shirts were $40, and is usually the first item I buy at any place I visit - and whilst I normally fit an XL to an XXL, I'd have needed a 6XL based on their sizings. External shops...Not really within control of the park - but there needs to be some spring cleaning put through the carpark retailers... some of them have lost touch with what it means to be a shopkeeper. One shop in particular had more 'dont touch, no food, no drink, you break it you bought it, parents please don't allow your children to..., don't this, don't that, that I just walked back out. The 'wood' guy had some nice stuff. Fudge co had some impressive flavours, but they needed vanilla. Lolly shop staff were by far the best on the strip All in all - we spent about 4 hours going through the park and the shops, did everything we wanted to do, and then back on the road before MOST of the southbound holiday traffic blocked the bruce hwy... the best thing I'll say about AW is that you won't queue much, if at all... something that may change once the new attractions go in...

I found the ventilation in the current subs to be quite adequate.

Queensland also has one - it's called 'Sunnybank'

It's closed until September - bypassing the very busy season of summer... so I doubt there is much truth to the rumor. The attraction opened in June 2007, and is over 6 years since it opened. Just about spot on time for a large maintenance refurb period. The materials used to make the coral and other underwater features is made primarily of coloured glass to reduce fading. I remember seeing the old subs in 1996 (two years before the original closed) and the underwater fish were extremely faded both from the sun exposure and the chlorine. Themouseforless.com says "When the attraction reopens, guests will notice the colorful, more vibrant underwater rockwork and coral." A member on Micechat proposed a theory of this attraction's demise based on rhetoric of poor capacity and running costs, and proceeded to expand on his theory with suggestions of what it could become. Not even a page later and everyone on the thread is talking like the subs have been closed already, and the bulldozers are moving in - they're all placing bets on what the new attractions will be, and how many of them there are. This is why dippin dots style rumors are dangerous - and chinese whispers cause all sorts of grief when word spreads. Thankfully, our parks don't have that kind of rumor mill, and the majority of truthful info can be found here. Relying on facebook threads from kids who like to spread garbage without base or fact means they deserve everything they get. Short answer is Nemo is ripe for a long-overhaul, and I would suggest closure to 'save money' (while keeping it closed all through summer) is probably nothing but bullshit.

I've rarely known MickeyD to be wrong. i'll accept what he says unless proven otherwise

A wild idea - and probably something best held for another thread - but here's a wacky concept - Ardent drives DW further downhill - eventually gets it to a point where they've poisoned everyone against it - revenue is down, and the park is making a loss.... ...does VRTP make an offer to buy? Why? Why not?

Ok so what you're describing is very similar to the Kamikaze... although the Kamikaze basically has a 'lounge chair' style seat... I can imagine a clover leaf (or even a whirlywheel) would be difficult to remain seated when hitting that water (I believe it is intended as a braking mechanism)... It doesn't make sense that there'd be many other installs not having the same issues - the pieces all bolt together to the same specs, don't they? I don't think the 'water pressure' thing answers the question - the standing water would have to reach a 'critical mass' before it starts to drain... it should be 'self levelling' to a certain level regardless of the flow-rate. This should be the same on all installations of this type.

For those who are too lazy to click: Fair enough - and closing the ride is the obvious decision in this case, to review the safety of the ride as well as safety procedures around it - Proslide are probably going to have to modify the slide if they can't fix the problem.... What i'm concerned about though is how much thought people put into their critique: Oh sure - so when the raft accidentally flips in the splashdown pool, they're tied to the bloody raft and drown. I'm confused what they're referring to? Is it where the raft meets standing water (like at the bottom of Kamikaze)? Or is it a physical part of the slide that they're hitting? Is there any video or photo of exactly what or where this is happening?

Thanks for the info - looks like they're gearing up to freshen the whole park over the next year or so. Continuous development and expansion of these properties only serves to prompt the others in the industry to do their own continuous development and expansion of their own properties....

Given your frequently hilarious take on things (TPAGG?) I'm sure we all do. The last 'Wow, thats awesome, I MUST go on that' moment for me was Claw.

1. Wasn't it always planned to run cloverleaf? Didn't they just run two-person rafts because the conveyor broke down? 2. Like other installations, dangerous slides causing injuries are usually a liability that the manufacturer takes responsibility for - they'll be required to re-engineer it to a level that will prevent the injuries.

Well of course Slick is going to say that - in 10 years he's gone from Dreamworld Fanboy to Dreamworld's number one critic. On the bright side - Our Worlds has officially surpassed DreamNova in number of times mentioned linked on Parkz Roller-Coaster.com.au... with 3.

It's not even coming off the back of a multi million dollar attraction... i want to point out that Movie World's news of a new tower ride was accompanied by artist's impression imagery, a description of the ride's operation, identification of the precise location of the ride - the point being it was a serious suggestion with some effort and thought put into it that showed commitment. So far DW's plans have no 'official' word, no artists impression, no news from the manufacturer at an IAAPA con that they were sending one to 'a park in australia', no GCCC DA.... we've got nothing but a rumor at this stage, and rumors are always treated with skepticism on these boards without a little more concrete detail - usually from the park itself. As stated - Dreamworld has a proven track record of disappointment. What's rumored to be a great installation (WWW mark II) becomes a disappointing substitute (Wedgie). They've conditioned their fans to expect this - it's not our fault - it's theirs for continuously disappointing them. They've only made it harder to claw their way back out of their grave and they'll need to deliver top notch, detailed, quality work to accomplish it. THAT is the everloving fuck. Your question to Flea was what was their last decent NEW ride. Buzzsaw may be enjoyable, but staying power, it has not. theres only so many times you can lie on your back for 15 seconds, before the quick adrenalin rush of a loop de loop (dont forget the whiplash) followed by half of the same thing in reverse. One trick pony it is - and it isn't decent. The claw (although cited by flea as a spin and spew) is in fact what I would term a decent ride. Capacity wise, it holds it's own for a flat (as did Wipeout in it's hey day) and is on par or better than Batwing for that reason... I must respectfully disagree with Mr Flea on that point. I also think he's been a little harsh on Cyclone. It may be an arrow, it may be a carpark coaster, but it is decent... it just wasn't 'NEW'.

Not necessarily - they could use electric motors with solar panels... I like the idea of a round-trip boat ride (jungle cruise style would be a good idea) - but i also like the concept of getting onto the island - perhaps the endbeginning of the cruise could be a tunnel (similar to storybookland canal boats), and a land bridge going over the tunnel to connect the island without the need for floating transport like the rafts and canoes... Yes its a large capital expenditure, and these days without a franchise to attach it to, it probably wouldn't happen - but that is something that would REALLY lift Dreamworld's game...

On the weekend just gone, I finally got the opportunity to watch ‘Blackfish’, and I can see why it has had such an impact on the park-going public. I don’t agree with its message – but I can see why many are suckered in. I’ve got a feeling this post is going to be a pretty long rambling one, so I will try and put a bullet point summation at the end if you don’t feel the need to read the ‘meat’ of it. If you feel the need to respond, please at least try and read the meat of it first in case something is lost in the summary. Please note that the majority of this is purely my own opinion unless otherwise stated. I haven’t cited specific references to maintain the flow, however where I have referred to other facts or evidence that contradict the park, the information came from sources found on google, including autopsy reports, news articles and Wikipedia (I am aware of the dubious nature of Wiki and accepted information from it with scepticism and a grain or 5 of salt). A word of warning – this contains spoilers. First of all, for obvious reasons, there aren’t any current trainers or management from the park – it is well known Sea World Parks declined to take part in the film – according to the director, they declined AFTER they were provided with a list of questions that would be asked in the interview. I read nothing into this except that they did not want to be a part of the film where the questions already suggested an interrogation or poor portrayal of the park in the public’s eyes. Naturally, like any issue with any of our parks where they refuse to comment, it can result in a very one-sided viewpoint, which is usually shown later to be the wrong one. Secondly, many (not all) of the former trainers interviewed alluded to the park in some way doing them wrong personally, outside of the realm of the whales themselves. They all seemed to have an axe to grind against the park. Some also felt they had been lied to, where the facts are unclear as to whether Sea World in fact knew the supposed truth or not. With all of that said, many of the statements made by the trainers are non-committal, which is then spun by the filmmaker into a committed statement – ie: frequent use of the words “may have” by the trainers, was further or later subtitled in the film by the “experts” (who had nothing to do with these animals) as being actual facts (apologies I can’t remember the specific lines here, but will go back through the film if necessary). The film tries to establish early that Orcas live to be 100, and therefore 'hidden camera' footage of SW staff stating 25-35 years is a lie - further compounded by one of them also agreeing that they live 'much longer in captivity due to the care they receive'. On ages, figures given include up to 100 years for females, and 50 years for males. My research also shows these figures coming up regularly, but more as a 'maximum possible' instead of an average. Averages given state females live 'around 50 years' and males 'around 30' years. Given Tilikum is now 32 years old, that has him surviving 'longer than average'. Further - the stats put forward by SW that 'they live longer in captivity' may be a reflection on their females living longer than 30 years, and therefore seen as 'above average' where they in fact should be expected to live until age 50. My source for this information also suggests captive Orca live less than this - 'usually less than 25 years' - however this is then qualified by saying that some captive animals currently survive into their 40's. Infact - San Diego is home to Corky (female), at 47 years old, and Miami home to the oldest living captive Orca - Lolita (female) at 48. The argument that the Orcas live less in captivity is also hard to prove - given the oldest living animals in captivity (both male and female) are only now within a year or two of their stated 'wild' average. Other Orca who died previously were not the product of the current wealth of knowledge by researchers and scientists studying the animals. Earlier captives suffered from a lack of knowledge for the animal that we have now, and most of what we now know is a direct result of the millions of dollars spent on research for the housing of these whales. I want to back up the statement made previously that the film contradicts itself – that sea world is breeding from a genetically predisposed aggressor, after making it clear that Tilikum was made that way by his treatment (which by the way was supposedly done by SeaLand in Victoria, BC Canada). On the topic of the incident at SeaLand (the first of the deaths supposedly directly attributed to Tilikum) The film states (as does the public record) that all management, officials, staff and investigations suggest it was unclear which whale was the aggressor, but suggests it was one of the two females in that tank that killed the trainer, NOT Tilikum. The film presents two women who were present as guests that day back in 1991 as eyewitnesses who were able to positively identify which of the three whales grabbed her. I’ve done my own research and there are many different stories and accounts out there, independent of SeaWorld Parks that state Tilikum, or Haida, or Nootka, or a combination of the three (The wiki article on sealand is less specific, simply stating ‘all 3’). Putting that conjecture aside, one fact that is undisputed is that Tilikum was frequently attacked and bullied by the other two females – so who is the aggressor? That the incident occurred 20 years prior to these two women being interviewed for the film (and given their statements that they were ‘never interviewed’ by authorities after the incident) They are the only ‘proof’ presented by the filmmaker that it was Tilikum that was responsible for the death of Keltie Byrne, yet these two weren’t seen as important enough even to be interviewed by authorities at the time? For me, there is enough ‘reasonable doubt’ out there that I cannot attribute her death to Tilikum alone or at least directly. The second death attributed to Tilikum was not a park employee but someone who entered the park covertly or else hid within the park after closure (some stories differ on this point) and proceeded to find his way to the Orca tanks apparently undetected. The film states (on the information of a former trainer) that there are cameras everywhere within the Orca arena, and that the ‘night trainer’ on duty could not have missed seeing this guy (and therefore him not being found until morning must have been a cover up by the park). This of course relies on the ‘night trainer’ actually watching the screens, when more likely – the night trainer was using that time to (i) sleep (ii) catch up on other work, given that on any average day, there wouldn’t usually be much to observe, and would likely be routine and boring. The guy was found naked, and sprawled across Tilikum’s back. The autopsy found multiple contusions and abrasions, and concluded he died from hypothermia and drowning. The film suggests that Tilikum had ripped the guys clothes off. Nobody has identified where his clothes were, and he may have simply gone for a swim in the tank (like those idiots at SWGC in the dolphin tank a year back) and decided he wanted dry clothes to wear when he got out. The contusions and abrasions may have been whale caused, or maybe by him climbing over razor wire to enter the park or the Orca arena itself? Who knows? Extremely circumstantial, and again, for me – enough ‘reasonable doubt’ that I cannot attribute his death to Tilikum. Given the stories of the native Americans about Orcas (and even stories about Dolphins from elsewhere), what’s to say the guy’s body wasn’t on Tilikum’s back because he caught him underwater and brought him back to the surface to try and save him? The third incident was the death of Dawn Brancheau, and probably the only time Tilikum was definitively the only animal responsible – However former trainers interviewed for the film do point out some mitigating factors – the food bucket was almost empty yet he was still being pushed by the head trainer to perform because of a poor or lacklustre ‘Shamu’ show (by other whales) a few minutes previously. That Tilikum had demonstrated precisely the behaviour asked of Dawn during the encounter, but failed to hear the bridge recall (the whistle), and so performed the behaviour for an entire lap of the pool is another factor. On returning to his starting position, he was reprimanded by the trainer (they ignore the whale for a few seconds instead of giving it a reward) for doing the wrong thing. This has been cited in articles about the incident as the possible reason for Tilikum’s act, citing prior treatment by Sea Land of withholding food to control the animals. The former trainers interviewed gave their opinion that ‘at first’ when Tilikum grabbed Dawn, it looked (in their educated view) to be a playful behaviour, that unfortunately degraded into something that resulted in her death. Sea World was criticised for attempting to mask the details of the actual incident, and the film cites a statement by a representative of the Sheriff’s department (the first media statement after the attack) as proof of this. The Sherriff’s representative stated that Dawn had been grabbed by her ponytail as it was loose (and should have been in a bun). Given Dawn was ‘scalped’, and the interview was not long after the incident, it’s a fairly natural assumption for a police officer to make without further details or review of footage. The film showed a partial clip immediately after the Sherriff’s statement of a Sea World representative stating that “if Dawn were here, she would state it was her fault too”. This is portrayed as Sea World trying to blame the trainer for something not her fault. There are several photographs shown of trainers interacting with the Orcas with a long ponytail given as proof that this wasn’t a requirement – but the former trainers agreed that long hair should have been in a bun. These photos of others with long ponytails only serve to show a culture of trainers perhaps not following the rules – “if the head trainer herself wasn’t following procedures, why would any of the others?” meaning potentially those other trainers are just lucky. The SW interview clip is a snippet, and is shown out of context of the interview. Without Sea World’s side to that point, we will never know. The movie spends a lot of time going over footage and interviews and opinions of Tilikum, however another incident (I think involving Kasatka) occurred where a trainer was repeatedly ‘dunked’, and only his scuba training, and quick thinking saved him. Kasatka is also reported as being responsible for two other acts of aggression – mainly grabbing incidents – one of which occurred where a trainer was identified as doing the wrong thing – interacting with Kasatka without a spotter safety person and placing her feet on her Rostrum (mouth). She was luckily rescued by trainers after being alerted by members of the public who were watching her – and her survival is credited to the quick thinking of a trainer who opened a gate separating that tank from another whale known to be more dominant. (I may have the specific identities of the whales mixed up, however none of them were Tilikum). These incidents have nothing to do with Tilikum – however there are less restrictions on Sea World trainers interacting with Kasatka, as there are with Tilikum. The movie also states that Tilikum is kept isolated in a tank since Dawn’s death, separate to the other whales – drawing conclusions and comparisons to the isolation he was subjected to at SeaLand prior to the death of Keltie, (which was done to protect him from the two aggressive females). This is simply not true. Since the incident with Dawn, Tilikum is normally housed in a tank with one or two of his grandchildren – Trua or Malia. Tilikum continues to perform in the One Ocean show, usually alongside Trua. A further three incidents involving ‘sea world’ whales at another park – Loro Parque in Spain resulted in one death, however each of these incidents involved a separate whale (Tekoa, Skyla and Keto), and trainers now do no waterwork (enter the water) with the whales at all. (It is worth mentioning that although all 3 whales originated from a Sea World park, Keto is completely unrelated to Tilikum, and yet was the one responsible for the trainer’s death – casting further doubt on the film’s concept of ‘genetic aggression’ being prevalent in Sea World’s breeding program because of Tilikum). In its final messages, the film concludes with imagery of people arguing for the release of all the whales, (or as compromise) that they be taken to a “sea-pen” to live out the remainder of their lives, and hear the natural rhythm of the ocean. Keiko (arguably the world’s most famous Orca – as the basis of the ‘free willy’ movies) was subject to similar protests, with over $7million dollars being raised to release Keiko from his park home, with the final step being housing him in a Sea Pen in Iceland (where he was originally captured). Keiko was unsuccessfully released into the wild once, and subsequently died from Pneumonia after beaching himself. There are around 6 sub-species of Orca, and I’m not aware of which type any of them are, but my layperson’s mind suggests perhaps Keiko was of the migratory kind, used to moving waters with the seasons. Alternatively, his isolation in a controlled environment may have led to the pneumonia once exposed to the seasonal water temperatures of the ocean. This suggests to me further the inappropriateness of either of those suggestions – releasing them or letting them ‘relax away their retirement’ in a sea pen after they have for many years lived in a controlled water environment, they would be so much more susceptible to illness on being exposed to wild waters. Onto other points, the film suggests 1% of wild males have dorsal collapse, but all captive males do. A little googling this morning found other figures, suggesting up to 23% of wild males show signs of dorsal collapse, and that although a very high majority – not ALL captive males show dorsal collapse. Further, there are several arguments for why Dorsal collapse occurs, but the high numbers of males in captivity may also be due to the captive gene pools having the same genetic pre-dispositions (coming mostly out of Iceland, Japan or the Northern American areas of the Atlantic). Lastly as another note - since the OSHA court case, the park has been prohibited from 'waterwork' with Tilikum. An article I found suggested that the park was planning on fitting the tanks with a false floor, capable of raising all animals (and trainers) completely out of the water in seconds in the event of another incident. Looking at the google maps imagery of the Orlando Park, the tank where Dawn was grabbed appears to have been fitted with this floor already. I’m sure there’s more to say to argue the “for and against”, but I can’t think of any more at this point. Look forward to hearing responses on what I’ve said so far. Let me reiterate that most of what i've said here is my own opinion, formed by watching the film and reading up articles and other web-based information to confirm or disprove my own thoughts and opinions on the "facts" presented by the filmmakers. As promised – here is the summary: Blackfish argues Tilikum made aggressive by subjecting him to cruel and harassed conditions (not caused by Sea World) Also argues Tilikum “genetically aggressive” and should not have been the basis of the sea world gene pool Aggressive incidents don’t all involve Tilikum’s gene pool, debunking the ‘genetic’ argument Those that involve Tilikum directly have conflicting information as to ‘which whale’ attacked Only one incident directly, and solely caused by Tilikum, however – mitigating factors are present. Many points accuse Sea World of lying or covering up details about incidents or the animals themselves. Most evidence is circumstantial or is just assumed by the filmmakers, or otherwise taken to be true on the word of a former trainer. Facts presented by the film – eg: Dorsal collapse are not universally agreed upon by all studies and research and some directly contradicted. Other facts, such as Tilikum’s isolation is just plain false. Life expectancy is also hard to prove disprove one way or another, given the ages of the oldest Orcas in captivity are only just now reaching the stated 'wild' averages. The film advocates releasing all captive Orca into the wild, or at least into sea-pens, despite many experts agreeing that wild release of all would be impossible, and history suggesting sea-pens are a death sentence. The alternative of course would be to euthanise an otherwise healthy animal, which of course would have animal rights groups up in arms about the slaughter - but the facts are clear that there would be no other option if Sea World were not to keep them in their Parks. (this has gone through a few drafts and had a few changes, so I may have edited something without adjusting the flow of the language inadvertently)

It's been free since ALMOST the beginning though - it was only opening month or two before other circumstances in the park led to a lack of attractions in the park, and a need for more activities to occupy guests. Wet N Wild doesn't really have that problem.

This is an unlikely theory, but perhaps they don't run it in PEAK season because of the higher risk to bystanders? #unlikelytheory... As far as not charging for it - imagine how long the queue would be if it were a free attraction with admission? Why don't we make the Pit Pass free with Movie World admission? What if they didn't charge to scuba dive in the shark tank at sea world? Point is - the experience is something not everyone would pay for - because zipliningdoing skidsswimming with a shark isn't something for everyone... but if it were free... EVERYONE would be lining up for it.

Obviously Gazza, he's waiting for someone to provide him links direct to the right page, so he can't answer your question until someone does...

Oh T-Bone - let's just keep this one between you and me, eh?

Disagree - it isn't groundless... perhaps exaggerated, as it wasn't to the extent suggested - but they've shown they'll deliberately curtail operations to save money... it isn't groundless to suggest the park would go to the next step and close down a (very expensive to maintain these days) flat ride. So - while I don't think even DW would stoop that low, it's not unthinkable given their history, and therefore - I repeat - it was not groundless rubbish.

Depending on your view - I'd say running only one side of Giant drop... or alternating attractions operating hours, or opening them later, or closing them earlier is closing big thrill rides to save costs, so you can, and it isn't absolute groundless rubbish.

Quite right - proof one cannot multitask at work. I stand corrected and of course meant Dolphin Cove.

You're at odds with each other - one saying towing is natural, the other saying surfingriding is an unnatural cheesy circus trick. Let me take on a couple of points from my point of view - which is to say my info comes from a family friend (and guest at my wedding) and is a person who was (and still is) very closely associated with Discovery Cove. I'll not discuss their association in greater detail simply to prevent anyone identifying them, but suffice to say they are in a position of knowledge. Jjutp - although "waving" or "splashing" may not be seen as natural behaviour, floating on their backs is a necessary behaviour for medical reasons - such as ultrasounds on pregnant mothers etc. Movement of the pectoral fins IS a natural behaviour - and is simply one exhibited while displaying the very necessary 'upside down' behaviour. When you say 'Splashing' i'm not sure if you're referring to the water-slapping done with their fluke, or whether you mean them scooping water intheir mouths and squirting it. Dolphins have been observed in the wild 'fluke-slapping' which is used working as a group to corral or herd school-fish, and they've even been observed to do this to work in conjunction with fisherman - although this is a behaviour exhibited working with humans, the animals WERE wild, and weren't trained specifically to do it - it was simply a natural behaviour that resulted in them being rewarded by the fisherman who benefited from their assistance. Mouth-squirting - i don't have an answer for - i don't know either way. Richard - the surfing riding 'stunts' have also been observed out of captivity, and as Jjutp refers, Dolphins have anecdotally been referred to as rescuers who (on occasion have been talked about) save people lost at sea. I can't explain other similar behaviours, but the breaching jumping is a natural behaviour, albeit with a foot on their nose. Either way - humandolphin interaction in the water (in my opinion) is good for them, socially, and to bond with their trainers. (I recall when the dolphins used to perform in the Sea Lion Stadium, one song they used to play during the show was something like 'swim with me'. ) Dolphins frequently cavort and play around watercraft, and other places where people and the ocean interact - they're social creatures - so swimming towing surfing with them, whilst not strictly 'natural' (because they need a human in order to exhibit it) isn't restricted to animals in captivity. Furthermore - on my last visit to Sea World, one dolphin, completely at leisure was within the main arena, leisurely flipping a basketball around the pool without direction or instruction from trainers... at one point flipping the ball out of the pool in front of a guest entering the arena, who tossed it back into the water, only to have it immediately tossed back out at them. As social creatures, they crave interation - and I would argue a similar scene would have occurred in open water had the dolphin, ball, and person been in the vicinity. In summary, my point is that I do not believe any of the behaviours or interactions displayed at our Sea World are done purely for entertainment value. I submit that all of these behaviours are either natural, necessary for the animal's physical wellbeing, or otherwise are intended to stimulate them mentally to prevent them from resorting to destructive behaviours out of boredom. If you hang around discovery cove after the show, (or if you're one of the first into the stadium) you may catch a glimpse of a trainer handling a small aluminium fence-type structure onto (or off of) some of the 'wet area' on the imagine stage (orangey painted part). This is to prevent a situation that occurred a while back where a bored dolphin beached itself onto the platform and received a nasty sunburn when it became stuck and unable to retreat back into the water. (this is the kind of destructive behaviour i'm referring to)

I agree that the whales should have much more than plain concrete pools. Discovery Cove is amazing and as pointed out by the germans in the trip report Gazza posted elsewhere a while back - is wonderful, but I think one of the big attractions for the Orca is the underwater viewing areas - this can certainly be implemented in a 'natural' environment (one only has to look at Shark Bay), however this would involve housing the Orcas temporarily in another tank elsewhere, or constructing a temporary one... i'm not sure either is viable for the entire Pod... one perhaps, but I don't think moving all of them is good for their health. I would like to see them build more natural environments - even if they perhaps used it in a paddock system - letting them 'out to pasture' to play when they are at leisure. That said, I think Sea World would take a massive hit if they lost them as an element of the park - it's still the number one attraction across their target market - evidenced clearly by the size of the stadium seating and the fact that it is filled - even in drizzling rain - to capacity. I do want to take to task the 'dorsal fin' debate and point out that wild Orcas have been observed with a collapsed dorsal, and I believe it is not just related to captivity, but sometimes to the length size of the fin being too much to hold erect. I don't want to belabour the point, but i've heard evidence both ways. On the GC park and our SW Dolphin show - i'm not sure I understand what you mean? Are you suggesting the dolphins at our Sea World do behaviours purely for entertainment rather than their natural actions or those to keep them mentally stimulated?