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Big Thunder Mountain Railway


Adam
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  1. 1. Big Thunder Mountain Railway

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I am partially to agree but I have the following points to make ;)

  • The operators didn’t say anything about finding it hard to locate which train made an unusual sound, it was simply a case of “not knowing what to do”
  • The operators described the sound as unusual – “Rarely occurring or appearing”, not different – “Unlike in form, quality, amount, or nature”, which you seem to be interchanging regularly. The noise wasn’t a variation to the normal sounds of the carriages, they were unusual noises.

Everyone is talking about operators getting told off for closing a ride, but what about the operators who were on duty when the incident occurred? I would not like to be in their position when the boss comes. Safety, Safety, Safety. At the end of the day, despite what everyone thinks, Disney have drafted a new policy to shut down the entire ride when an unusual sound is heard. I think it’s their best option in the interest of guest safety, which Disney claim is their number one priority. The ride could be closed for an hour or two while the train is removed, and then reopened, or the ride could be closed for six months with DOSH investigators all over the place. I do not believe Disney would have drafted a new procedure and retrained every operator, if the current procedures and policies were working. Just my opinion (not to mention Disney’s and DOSH’s as well). Case closed.

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[*]The operators described the sound as unusual – “Rarely occurring or appearing”, not different – “Unlike in form, quality, amount, or nature”, which you seem to be interchanging regularly. The noise wasn’t a variation to the normal sounds of the carriages, they were unusual noises.
While im sure your wonderful Oxford dictionary was obliging to supply those definitions, i think the similarities in the two words are irrelevant. If something is unusual, it is not usual, in other words, not what it normally is. If something is different, it is not what it usually is. the waters get muddied there and i don't think arguing the pedantics of the english language matter much in this debate, considering those words (as demonstrated) are pretty similar.
At the end of the day, despite what everyone thinks, Disney have drafted a new policy to shut down the entire ride when an unusual sound is heard.
Show me the exact wording of this policy. the DOSH report is probably the most detailed report we have on this incident and it doesn't say what the policy instructs the operator to do. I think yet again you are reading your own words into what you read for the benefit of your own argument.
I think it’s their best option in the interest of guest safety, which Disney claim is their number one priority. The ride could be closed for an hour or two while the train is removed, and then reopened, or the ride could be closed for six months with DOSH investigators all over the place. I do not believe Disney would have drafted a new procedure and retrained every operator, if the current procedures and policies were working.
You're not listening, are you? as already said, the report doesnt say what the new policy dictates to the operator. it is highly likely that the train will be shunted off, yellow tagged and after a 4 minute downtime to get that specific train off the rails, it is back up and running again... not a two hour down time. And another thing you still aren't listening on - the Disney operators were NEVER retrained after this incident. the only effect this accident had on the operators themselves besides psychological or emotional is a modification to the operations manual that may and or may not make a lick of difference in a future emergency.
Just my opinion (not to mention Disney’s and DOSH’s as well). Case closed.
No, because you have misread and misquoted half of the previous discussions, and the entire DOSH report, meaning once again you're twisting the words to suit yourself, the same way you have done it in countless posts on this forum since you joined. Your opinion is not that of DOSH, because the DOSH opinion you are quoting is a MISQUOTE. Your opinion is not that of Disney, because the Disney opinion you are quoting is a MISQUOTE.
My opinion... Disney’s and DOSH’s as well). Case closed.
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If the sound was heard when the train was coming into the station, which it was, and the ride shut down or train removed immediately, the accident would not have occurred. And about the retraining, that was related to the second accident on Big Thunder Mountain. I am not sure of the new policy by Disney but I presume it would be to shut down the ride or remove the train from service immediately (i.e. without passengers being loaded). I am still trying to find the policy and ill tell you if I get it.

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If the sound was heard when the train was coming into the station, which it was
Where is the evidence that this occurred? they made the decision after the train left. Prove it.
And about the retraining, that was related to the second accident on Big Thunder Mountain.
Well, i'm pretty sure that this discussion is based on the first accident and subsequent report. With the exception of my mentioning the fact the ride HAD a second accident, I dont see the relevancy of bringing in the reports from the second accident, to back up information from the first. there is no link to the recommendations made by the DOSH in the first incident, and the recommendations, policies or reports made by Disney or Dosh in the Second.
I am not sure of the new policy by Disney but I presume it would be to shut down the ride or remove the train from service immediately
My point exactly, finally, proven, and admitted. YOU ARE PRESUMING THIS INFORMATION. If i presume something, I say so. When you presume something, you argue for 45 posts that its fact until someone shoves it up your nether region. This is the same thing that happened with the Scooby Doo Motorised car incident. If there is proof, I haven't found it, and i have spent hours reading all the information associated with these incidents. I do not believe Disney would publish the intricate safety procedures that they instruct their operators on, for one, because if a general public member knew some of the policies, they probably wouldn't ride... am i right Bussy? Daniel? So your presumption is permitted to be stated, however, do not state it as fact. . . . . because god only knows Adam, we have already discovered how absolutely full of it you are.
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Where is the evidence that this occurred? they made the decision after the train left. Prove it.
Here is your proof Alex.
At this point, the train entered the station and the passengers disembarked. Several cast members say that they heard an unusual noise coming from the train, and decided to remove the train for inspection by maintenance after it completed one last run. At 11:17 a.m., the train was set onto the track with approximately 24 people on board for its thirteenth run of the day.
Well, i'm pretty sure that this discussion is based on the first accident and subsequent report.
I know, I got mixed up between them. But if a new policy is drafted, operators would need to be trained on the new procedure so you could call it retraining.
YOU ARE PRESUMING THIS INFORMATION
If I am misleading you I am sorry but it's common sense that the new policy wouldn't be to load a car making an unusual noise with passengers and cycle it around the track once more, as the accident could occur again, this is a new procedure. So what other options do they have for a new policy? Removing a train immediately or shutting it down seems the only logical responses to this situation. Does anyone else know what they would do? I suppose it doesn’t really matter what they do (for the sake of my argument) as long as it doesn’t result in loading a carriage that has been making an unusual sound with passengers.
This is the same thing that happened with the Scooby Doo Motorised car incident.
I came onto the forums to find proof that Scooby either had motors or didn't have motors and I am confident I have gotten the proof I was looking for. That proof is that Scooby doesn’t have onboard motors, many of the other forum members were happy to explain why they wouldn’t have motors. If I had known the cars had motors, why would I have posted? This discussion is different. Many articles put the incident down to two reasons, one of them is maintenance, and one of them is operator negligence. Also the DOSH report states there was no procedure in place. So could it also be the fault of Disneyland? If Disney had the correct procedures in place relating to trains making unusual or irregular sounds the accident would not have occurred. Disney have implemented new procedures to prevent the death of an innocent man occurring again, if Disney had procedures for ride operators to either unload a train making an unusual sound or tag it and remove it immediately, the accident would not have occurred. If the sound was heard when the train was coming into the station, which it was, and the ride shut down or train removed immediately, the accident would not have occurred. Wonderbus, joz, Alex, Richard… Do you believe it was no fault of Disney whatsoever and there was no way at all this accident could have been prevented and that all their procedures were correct and didn’t need changing?
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I do not believe Disney would publish the intricate safety procedures that they instruct their operators on, for one, because if a general public member knew some of the policies, they probably wouldn't ride... am i right Bussy? Daniel?
There is no way that the parks policies and procedures would be made public. The general stuff maybe but not the intricate stuff. If the public had any real idea of what goes on at a theme park, in terms of operational matters, they would probably never visit a park again.
Do you believe it was no fault of Disney whatsoever and there was no way at all this accident could have been prevented and that all their procedures were correct and didn’t need changing?
I have not read the full report and procedures both new and old because I couldn't be bothered really. But I think that it was Disney's fault for relying on a sub-contractor to do ride maintenance. Yes this accident could have been prevented but then again everything is preventable all it takes is one decision. "The Bus is now leaving for Botherling, Western Australia"
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Wonderbus, joz, Alex, Richard… Do you believe it was no fault of Disney whatsoever and there was no way at all this accident could have been prevented and that all their procedures were correct and didn’t need changing?
Without question this is Disney's fault, I don't think anyone disputes that. Unlike you, I believe the majority of the blame can be rested on the shoulders of the guys who tagged it as safe for use without doing the job properly, rather then on the operators or even the operators policies. I also believe the new policy doesn't affect the operations of the ride, but is more of an attempt to give people some confidence in the ride (There's a new term for ya, "Placebo policy"). This is indicated by the fact that they were (supposedly) planning to take the train off the ride even without the guidelines telling them to do so. Really, if the maintenance guys had done the job right in the first place, then we wouldn't be talking about this. I think blaming the operators is a bit like blaming the goalie when your team looses at soccer, even though the ball had to get past 12 other players first.
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Here is your proof Alex.
Very good. you found a quote from a single opinionated person who does not work for DOSH. Now here's DOSH's official word on the same statement...
"they also stated that the noise did not seem to be a major concern, but during the thirteenth cycle, while the train was in operation and with passengers on board, they had decided to remove train #2 from service for an inspection to determine the cause of the noise. The accident occurred before the train finished the cycle."
I know, I got mixed up between them. But if a new policy is drafted, operators would need to be trained on the new procedure so you could call it retraining.
You wanted to get pedantic over the words unusual and different and now you're saying "you could call it..." The single amendment that was recommended would not necessitate bringing in every single cast member to be retrained. I would guess (probably quite rightly, having worked in a park myself) that a communication on a change in procedure, would generally just be an "all staff memo", posted in the ride op sign on area, which would draw their attention to the new amendment in the manuals, and decribe the change in summary on the memo itself.
If I am misleading you I am sorry but it's common sense that the new policy wouldn't be to load a car making an unusual noise with passengers and cycle it around the track once more, as the accident could occur again, this is a new procedure. So what other options do they have for a new policy? Removing a train immediately or shutting it down seems the only logical responses to this situation.
The bottom line is, without this extra line of instruction, it is obvious by fact that the operators still know that if they feel something is unsafe, they should outservice it, or close it down. This extra line just takes the onus of responsibility off Disney, and puts it on the shoulders of the operators themselves.
I came onto the forums to find proof that Scooby either had motors or didn't have motors and I am confident I have gotten the proof I was looking for. If I had known the cars had motors, why would I have posted?
Well lets have a look at your first few posts on that topic shall we? OOOoooops thats right, you got embarassed at how stupid you felt about it so you deleted the thread -
"I have removed the thread that related to how I think it works"
Your original post came on swearing blue in the face that a "source" at WBMW told you that they all had motors and brakes and automatic fire detectors in the eyes on the front of the car. When people told you that you were wrong, you got angry, called them names, and said that "you would get more information from your source". You are a FOOL adam. A fool who cannot admit when he is wrong.... no... when its obvious you are wrong, you delete all proof of the fact that you were found to be wrong.
If Disney had the correct procedures in place relating to trains making unusual or irregular sounds the accident would not have occurred.
You dont know that. What if the upstop fell off on the first cycle? there is no evidence you can provide to suggest that this wouldn't have happened if they had an extra redundant line in a manual that half the operators probably would not even read unless it was bright pink.
Wonderbus, joz, Alex, Richard… Do you believe it was no fault of Disney whatsoever and there was no way at all this accident could have been prevented and that all their procedures were correct and didn’t need changing?
As has been said to you numerous times before, by numerous people in numerous threads... seeing in retrospect is always 20/20 Vision. There is no physically possible way you can prove or disprove this information. So far as what bussy says as far as Disney being at fault for providing the maintenance by an outside contractor, Yes, in that way, you could blame disney, but I dont specifically blame disney for that decision, as it was a way to keep costs down, WHICH EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE CIVILISED WORLD WILL DO if given the opportunity. The only let down was that the outside contractors did not fulfill their contracts. If they had of fulfilled their contracts, the accident would not have happened, because the contracts specify the procedures to be followed, including the tagging procedure. if the tagging procedure had been followed by maintenance, the train would never have been allowed back on the track without a tightened set of bolts on the upstop guidewheel - front left hand side of train number two's decorative locomotive. You ask me if there was no way the accident could have been prevented? i say there was a way - maintenance following the correct procedure. No operator removing the train or shutting the ride, just maintenance providing a safe vehicle for use on the track, and certifying it correctly for that purpose. thats all. for that reason I DO NOT blame disney in any way shape or form, it is the whole and sole responsiblity of the maintenance team charged with the maintenance, service and repair of that ride - the West Reliability Team.
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My entire argument was on the basis of it being Disney’s fault because Alex keeps claiming Disney had nothing to do with it. Maybe I got side tracked on the whole operator stuff but I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks Disney is, at least, partially to blame. Joz and wonderbus, very nicely put. I definitely agree joz about you can't place all the blame on the operators, I am just saying that it could maybe have been prevented if the operators were instructed to remove the train immediately.

I don't think anyone disputes that
Alex does, that’s what this whole debate is about, whether Disney is to blame or not.
for that reason I DO NOT blame disney in any way shape or form
Alex, at no point have I been angry at anyone whose opinion actually counts on these forums. You make up so much s*** Alex and you have been wrong on heaps of stuff. I come onto these forums to talk roller coaster stuff, while you seem to come to make friends and insult people, Alex I don’t give a s*** okay? Get over it. Get over yourself. Alex, you have been wrong about Scooby’s wheels, you have been wrong about LIM’s never being used on flumes, you have been wrong about metal expansion, you have been wrong about a ride having to have two turntables, you have been wrong about wonderland maintenance routines, you have been wrong about heaps of stuff, yet do I continue to go out about it? Do I even care? Get over it… seriously. This is my last post relating to Big Thunder Mountain as everyone has seemed to have formed their own opinions on this, if you don’t want to think Disney is to blame, or at least partially to blame, then its up to you. I repeat… “Disney have taken the blame. If Disney were doing everything correctly, how could this man have died? Disney chooses who performs maintenance on this attraction, therefore, Disney were not following the correct procedures in hiring suitable maintenance staff.
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Alex, you have been wrong about Scooby’s wheels, you have been wrong about LIM’s never being used on flumes, you have been wrong about metal expansion, you have been wrong about a ride having to have two turntables, you have been wrong about wonderland maintenance routines, you have been wrong about heaps of stuff, yet do I continue to go out about it? Do I even care?
Apparently, Yes. Half of what you listed was a guess or an assumption, which I did not state as fact. When you're wrong, you state it as fact. Remind me again what exactly i was wrong about with Scooby's wheels? The two turntables was about the only thing out of that whole list that I did state as certainty. Everything else was a stated assumption, guess, or a claim to common sense. Funny thing is in the year I have been here thats about all there was that I was wrong about. the difference between you and me is that when I realise I am wrong, I admit it, i dont delete all evidence of it, and then claim for 50 posts in another thread that I never was wrong. Here are the facts Until despatched on the 13th cycle, the oeprators did not feel the noise was a danger When they felt it was a danger, they elected to remove it as soon as possible the new amendments to the manuals will probably not change that because the operators will STILL need to feel it is a danger before doing anything. Maintenance did not tighten the bolts Maintenance signed off on the train being fit for service, when it wasn't. Disney at all times maintained the policies necessary for that ride to be kept in good condition. Maintenance did not follow those policies. this is why the accident happened. It is the fault of Maintenance. they goofed. Disney Didnt.
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