Dreamworld’s BuzzSaw is Retiring

[pazzap]

I am probably the only one here that is absolutely gutted Buzzsaw has closed.. The only Maurer Skyloop in the Southern Hemisphere and one of very few in the world, I find them absolutely terrifying in the best way possible, and I love the final back and forth shuttle run in the very back seat.. I don't understand the hate.. At 403 coasters, I have ridden a ton of bad ones (the worst ever in my lifetime being the long defunct Hercules at Dorney Park), and this rates no where near the worst. 

With Steel Taipan close by, and a new paint job (maybe jet black track and orange supports to flip the ST theme)?, and a rename, this could have finally gained some popularity, say to ride before or after ST.

Dreamworld had the best Wild Mouse on the planet when it was open, and it's gone. They had one of only 2 Intamin Reverse Freefall Coasters on the planet, and it's gone. They had a very unique and fun flat ride, and it's gone. They keep killing off major rides but to lose TWO major coasters in a few years is insanity to me. I mean the park has literally gone from 9 "big thrills" to 6 LOL (and I never counted Mick Doohan as a thrill ride of any kind anyway, so 5).

The sale price they are asking is around 1/10th of what they paid for Buzzsaw.. and apparently there are tons of spare parts included.. So WHY not at least TRY to revamp it and just give it one more shot now that ST will draw more attention to it? Would it hurt them financially that much? More than losing 6.2 million AUD on the resale? I guess maybe it will, otherwise they would?

I honestly "feel" like buying it at that price and installing it on a plot of land in the country. Of course I won't, cause it would eat almost my entire savings and I could not maintain it and could never make money off it, but the thought seriously did cross my mind momentarily.

So Dreamworld has now gone to a 4 coaster park, with guess what, ONE good one! (when it opens).

If they really want to remove coasters so much, kill off that horrible Arrow Looper or reprofile it at least to make it a good coaster, starting with a much steeper first drop. Something. Or have RMC do their first steel to steel conversion. (The reason I hate the now named Gold Coaster is because it was specially designed and even lightly themed for an exact location at LPS, and it's a ridiculous coaster where it is now - at least with the interaction it was almost fun at LPS, but I digress)

Buzzsaw, no matter what you think of it, was still a major ride at a park that has lost too many.. I'd be much more ok with it if they had a replacement planned, but they don't. My 2C.

Anyway, RIP Buzzsaw, and I hope Luna Park Melbourne buys you. Truly. Or Aussie World. Or heck, even movie world to replace AA (but truthfully, I want a mega lite inverting coaster there or a storm chaser style RMC).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by pazzap

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

So - you think its a good idea to keep a ride that is long established as a 'one trick pony' that has had numerous issues with safety systems and maintenance, but you think they should get rid of a full circuit, classic attraction - an Arrow custom looper that (as was recently said elsewhere on Parkz) would probably qualify as an ACE classic if it was in North America, simply because it wasn't specifically designed for the site?

[pazzap]

Yes.

Classic or not, GC is simply the worst Arrow looper layout ever made, ever. Its ONLY saving grace was its location when it was built. It's a terrible, terrible coaster and I stand by my words. Why is BS a one trick pony? You get insane hangtime on the lift, the lift is terrifying till you clear it, especially after what happened at Magic Springs, and then you get an awesome shuttle section that leaves your guts at the top. Not to mention the roll at the top. I am seeing three tricks here - upside down lift hill, heartline roll and full speed shuttle section. I'd happily ride it many times in a day and get thrilled every time. BS is the only coaster I have ever been scared on, EVER, and that's because of the lift hill situation. I like being scared, it's a nice addition to being thrilled.

Can you please tell me what safety issues it has had that make it unique in that department vs other coasters, same with maintenance? 

By the way, Buzzsaw is technically full circuit, it goes around the original circuit completely after a lift hill. You are thinking of launched shuttle coasters that don't have joined track at both ends.

Buzzsaw is not unsafe. What happened at Magic Springs was a freak, and one of only 5 times in the world a coaster has gotten stuck upside down. In all of documented history. The fact that it DID happen though is what makes it scary. To me anyway. My then BF and I both enjoyed it equally, many times during our visit. If I had been allowed to leave my state and DW was open at the time, I'd have gone for a final marathon of 50 rides if I could have gotten them in in a day before it closed for good.

PS you conveniently missed out where I said the ride could be improved if not removed, for example, profiling the ridiculous near horizontal drop (J/K but it's bad), to actually be steep and could then deliver airtime, as well as drastically improving the ride overall. Some of the middle dead track area could be changed around also.

PPS I put my money where my mouth is - Magic Springs got added to my park destinations for my marathon trip next year, after Buzzsaw was announced as closing. I would like to enjoy a skyloop again on my trip.

Edited September 17, 2021 by pazzap

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

56 minutes ago, pazzap said:

Can you please tell me what safety issues it has had that make it unique in that department vs other coasters, same with maintenance? 

2015 it was unexpectedly shut down when the primary restraint system failed and the restraint was only held by the secondary safety system. Still safe, but not ideal - and while i'm sure there are cases out there, I have personally not heard of any others.

I didn't conveniently miss anything. Your primary statement was "waaaah, keep ride i like, get rid of ride I hate... or at least spend millions changing it to how I want it when it's already over 25 years old just because I said so".

 

They just poured money into a refresh and refurb of Gold Coaster. It is CLEARLY worth the additional investment for the expected additional life remaining. On the flip side - they're eating a $10M loss on Buzz - despite as you point out having loads of parts and spares - because it is clearly not a feasible decision. 

56 minutes ago, pazzap said:

By the way, Buzzsaw is technically full circuit, it goes around the original circuit completely after a lift hill. You are thinking of launched shuttle coasters that don't have joined track at both ends.

Yeah I didn't consider a single loop of track to be 'full' anything. But you do make a good point and i think the closest we can get to an answer is this coasterforce conversation that concluded it wasn't a full circuit or a shuttle but a 'hybrid'.

Full circuit shuttle coasters definition | FORUMS - COASTERFORCE

I would define a full circuit coaster as having several elements throughout the course. Buzzsaw has one. 

56 minutes ago, pazzap said:

Why is BS a one trick pony? You get insane hangtime on the lift, the lift is terrifying till you clear it, especially after what happened at Magic Springs, and then you get an awesome shuttle section that leaves your guts at the top. Not to mention the roll at the top. I am seeing three tricks here - upside down lift hill, heartline roll and full speed shuttle section

Let's break it down:

• Hangtime on the lift
• The lift is terrifying till you clear it
• Then you get an awesome shuttle section that leaves your guts at the top
• Not to mention the roll at the top
• upside down lift hill
• heartline roll (at the top)
• full speed shuttle section (on other coasters we call that "the first drop")

And you still want to tell me it's not a one-trick pony? Maybe try looking it up. It literally goes up, does a single twist, and comes down. And this board is FILLED with people describing buzz as PRECISELY that definition. So even if you still disagree, you're in the minority. 

Enjoy Magic Springs.

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by DaptoFunlandGuy

[Jobe]

1 hour ago, pazzap said:

f they really want to remove coasters so much, kill off that horrible Arrow Looper or reprofile it at least to make it a good coaster, starting with a much steeper first drop. Something. Or have RMC do their first steel to steel conversion. (The reason I hate the now named Gold Coaster is because it was specially designed and even lightly themed for an exact location at LPS, and it's a ridiculous coaster where it is now - at least with the interaction it was almost fun at LPS, but I digress)

 

 

48 minutes ago, pazzap said:

Classic or not, GC is simply the worst Arrow looper layout ever made, ever. Its ONLY saving grace was its location when it was built. It's a terrible, terrible coaster and I stand by my words.

Yeah I cannot agree with you here. Respect your opinion , but the Gold Coaster is nowhere near the worst Arrow layout ever made. Yes it was designed for and specifically built for LPS and whilst I do kind of agree that it was best in that location, as it stands now at Dreamworld, its actually a good fit. When it was first placed up there in the early 2000's it was a carpark coaster and quite bereft of anything that made it special at LPS- namely the closeness of the cliff and the out and back feel of the helix floating behind Coney Island. All this was pre Whitewater World. Now that WWW has grown organically around it, the coaster feels so much more settled and "permanent" in nature and there is a true sense that it belongs there. The helix around the slide tower provides excellent kinetic energy for WWW but it also provides a sense of journey for the riders of Gold Coaster, as they travel around its layout. Gold Coaster's worst and unforgivable feature is the queue line which successive rethemes have not completely fixed to be honest. Yes the relocation has made it much more rougher than what it was when it was at LPS however, with the newer Vekoma trains and the much better vest restraints, this is somewhat mitigated. (However in saying that , I do miss the original trains with the red LED lighting down the side- they looked sick at night when it ran at LPS).

So in summary I would definitely remove Buzzsaw before even considering removing Gold Coaster.

I do agree that its a shame that it will more than like leave Australian shores- thats the unfortunate harsh reality- and no one likes to see coaster counts reduce , especially in a country like Australia where our coaster count is not huge. I would be happy to see one of our smaller parks pick this ride up ( its an absolute bargain, given its age etc) but its not looking likely by any account or people in the know.

[Baconjack]

Haha what? Lemme go through this post one by one.

Quote

Dreamworld had the best Wild Mouse on the planet when it was open, and it's gone.

A certain park on the Sunshine Coast, a certain park a few kilometres down the road, and a certain park in Sydney would all disagree with that statement (to think about it, most of the wild mouse coasters we have/had are good ones haha)

Quote

They had one of only 2 Intamin Reverse Freefall Coasters on the planet, and it's gone. They had a very unique and fun flat ride, and it's gone. They keep killing off major rides but to lose TWO major coasters in a few years is insanity to me. I mean the park has literally gone from 9 "big thrills" to 6 LOL (and I never counted Mick Doohan as a thrill ride of any kind anyway, so 5).

So what? Both of these examples were nearing the end of their lives. DW was quite fortunate to get ToT and Wipeout operational as long as they were able to given how both were in and out of operation in their last years. They didn't just say 'fuck it, we're removing rides to make the park smaller' it was a byproduct of decades of sub par maintenance and at the end of the day is what will happen when you are running rare ride types or prototype rides. Buzzsaw was the same. Replacements will come in time, a Wipeout replacement is more than likely in the pipeline.

Quote

So Dreamworld has now gone to a 4 coaster park, with guess what, ONE good one! (when it opens).

If they really want to remove coasters so much, kill off that horrible Arrow Looper or reprofile it at least to make it a good coaster, starting with a much steeper first drop. Something. Or have RMC do their first steel to steel conversion. (The reason I hate the now named Gold Coaster is because it was specially designed and even lightly themed for an exact location at LPS, and it's a ridiculous coaster where it is now - at least with the interaction it was almost fun at LPS, but I digress)

Again, so what?

In 2019 you had 4 average at best coasters, to now a good one and two average coasters. I've said it before but i'll repeat it, but I'll take a good ride in Steel Taipan over a bone rattly tin can and a 'flagship attraction' that barely made it halfway up the tower in its last years. I'm sure most people on this forum think similarly. I get DW is in a bad spot atm but the reason we aren't complaining about it is because Buzzsaw's replacement is opening in a few months.

Gold Coaster is a boring ride but in comparison to Buzzsaw it is no wonder why Dreamworld decided to spend money giving it new trains, a paint job, and a retheme, the like. The ride is built like a tank. Buzzsaw on the other hand was barely able to stay open especially in the last 5 years. Anyone who kept a close eye on Dreamworld in that time would be able to tell you this.

Quote

Buzzsaw is not unsafe. What happened at Magic Springs was a freak, and one of only 5 times in the world a coaster has gotten stuck upside down. In all of documented history. The fact that it DID happen though is what makes it scary. To me anyway. My then BF and I both enjoyed it equally, many times during our visit. If I had been allowed to leave my state and DW was open at the time, I'd have gone for a final marathon of 50 rides if I could have gotten them in in a day before it closed for good.

The numerous Buzzsaw lap bar failures would like to disagree.

[pazzap]

9 hours ago, Jobe said:

 

 

Yeah I cannot agree with you here. Respect your opinion , but the Gold Coaster is nowhere near the worst Arrow layout ever made. Yes it was designed for and specifically built for LPS and whilst I do kind of agree that it was best in that location, as it stands now at Dreamworld, its actually a good fit. When it was first placed up there in the early 2000's it was a carpark coaster and quite bereft of anything that made it special at LPS- namely the closeness of the cliff and the out and back feel of the helix floating behind Coney Island. All this was pre Whitewater World. Now that WWW has grown organically around it, the coaster feels so much more settled and "permanent" in nature and there is a true sense that it belongs there. The helix around the slide tower provides excellent kinetic energy for WWW but it also provides a sense of journey for the riders of Gold Coaster, as they travel around its layout. Gold Coaster's worst and unforgivable feature is the queue line which successive rethemes have not completely fixed to be honest. Yes the relocation has made it much more rougher than what it was when it was at LPS however, with the newer Vekoma trains and the much better vest restraints, this is somewhat mitigated. (However in saying that , I do miss the original trains with the red LED lighting down the side- they looked sick at night when it ran at LPS).

So in summary I would definitely remove Buzzsaw before even considering removing Gold Coaster.

I do agree that its a shame that it will more than like leave Australian shores- thats the unfortunate harsh reality- and no one likes to see coaster counts reduce , especially in a country like Australia where our coaster count is not huge. I would be happy to see one of our smaller parks pick this ride up ( its an absolute bargain, given its age etc) but its not looking likely by any account or people in the know.

I did mean layout, so I am glad you included that. It's not the worst Arrow coaster by a long shot, but the layout is basically 100% dead track with 2 inversions at the end. In LPS I considered it smooth. The ops on the night I went were enthusiasts and we discussed things for hours - they were so excited about the Big Dipper. There's other CRAZY things that happened that night but I won't even bother as no one will believe me, but I'll fondly remember it as one of the most fun nights and very early into my love of coasters.

 

I appreciate your opinion and respect it. I just happen to hate the coaster.. Note, I only rode it at LPS at night and DW during the day. I  haven't ridden with the new Vekoma trains, and as long as it doesn't bang my head again (which it now won't), I'll be happy to re ride it once or twice.

 

I have absolutely no nostalgia when it comes to coasters. It's just the way I am.. EG. If I had my way, LPM would tear down the Scenic Railway whereas most enthusiasts appreciate it being a classic of a bygone era (and it's heritage trust now anyway so can't go anywhere). So I feel nothing towards Gold Coaster, other than it's a bad ride. That's how I judge coasters, purely on whether I enjoy them. If I had a choice, I would ride Buzzsaw over GC, and that's my current opinion. 

 

I'm fully vaxxed, so I am hoping I can go OS soon, and if OS travel is allowed by next US/EU summer, I'll see if my opinion changes then when I hit up Magic Springs. Maybe I am remembering it too fondly, and maybe cause it was the most thrilling coaster we had at the time I rode it. It's possible., I mean Rivals wasn't even built yet. If OS travel is not allowed next year, then it will have to be 2023, but I'll be past 50, and I really want to do a large 20 year anniversary trip for my 50th. (my largest trip ever was in 2002 with 90 days total - trips since have been shorter, then I had back damage and have been taking it easy for a while now).

 

More unpopular opinion - Had Movie world invested in the superb SLC updated trains from Vekoma themselves, I'd place AA as a top 3 Aussie coaster. I love the layout, intensity and pacing. If you've ridden one of the SLC's with these trains I am sure you would agree. I can not believe they are closing it, and it was never unpopular anyway. Another one bites the dust.

 

9 hours ago, Baconjack said:

Haha what? Lemme go through this post one by one.

A certain park on the Sunshine Coast, a certain park a few kilometres down the road, and a certain park in Sydney would all disagree with that statement (to think about it, most of the wild mouse coasters we have/had are good ones haha)

So what? Both of these examples were nearing the end of their lives. DW was quite fortunate to get ToT and Wipeout operational as long as they were able to given how both were in and out of operation in their last years. They didn't just say 'fuck it, we're removing rides to make the park smaller' it was a byproduct of decades of sub par maintenance and at the end of the day is what will happen when you are running rare ride types or prototype rides. Buzzsaw was the same. Replacements will come in time, a Wipeout replacement is more than likely in the pipeline.

Again, so what?

In 2019 you had 4 average at best coasters, to now a good one and two average coasters. I've said it before but i'll repeat it, but I'll take a good ride in Steel Taipan over a bone rattly tin can and a 'flagship attraction' that barely made it halfway up the tower in its last years. I'm sure most people on this forum think similarly. I get DW is in a bad spot atm but the reason we aren't complaining about it is because Buzzsaw's replacement is opening in a few months.

Gold Coaster is a boring ride but in comparison to Buzzsaw it is no wonder why Dreamworld decided to spend money giving it new trains, a paint job, and a retheme, the like. The ride is built like a tank. Buzzsaw on the other hand was barely able to stay open especially in the last 5 years. Anyone who kept a close eye on Dreamworld in that time would be able to tell you this.

The numerous Buzzsaw lap bar failures would like to disagree.

The day I went it was up and reliable. What do you want me to say? 

Also, why does it matter for people to keep telling me "and others here would agree".

Why on Earth would I care what others at a forum prefer? My opinion is my opinion. I'd bulldoze GC in a heartbeat. I despise it. Just accept it, or don't. I need a coaster to be thrilling. I won't be conforming cause of what others think. I've done enough coasters to know what I like.

 

My opinions are generally unpopular and I've always been accustomed to that. For example, my favourite B&M hyper is Apollo's Chariot, and only in the very back row. In the front I don't even rate it but I only care about the fun I personally had in the back row, on a dead day with over 30 rides including a triple cycle to close the day. It doesn't make top 100 for most people. But because of the pre drop, which B&M doesn't do any more, it makes the first main drop leave my tummy at the top and me completely out of my seat. Nitro, Intimidator, Diamondback don't have the same effect on the first drop. That is why I also love Raging Bull (back seat again only) more than all the others (2nd place for me). My favourite sensations are, in order 1) dropping and leaving guts at top, hopefully combined with airtime 2)Zero G/Barrel Rolls 3) Stalls 4) Dive loops. I can take or leave everything else. It's just me.

 

As far as the wild mouse, I have ridden them ALL in OZ, and again, I stand by my opinion that nothing came close to the mine ride. I am 6ft 4 and the head choppers were insane. It was so uniquely themed, it was like a terrain mouse, built into the slope of the artificial mountain. Mad Mouse at Melb show was fun. LPS Mouse is fun BUT the last time I rode that was the same night as big dipper, and from recent POVs it seems they trim it now. Location is fantastic though.

Blackpool Mouse would be tied with Mine Ride as number one for me, but that is now gone as well. Out of the current mice? Dark Knight, Scooby and LPS, of course. IMO. Now there's a ride I hope they keep forever, the wild mouse LPS.

Edited September 17, 2021 by pazzap

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

12 minutes ago, pazzap said:

Had Movie world invested in the superb SLC updated trains from Vekoma themselves, I'd place AA as a top 3 Aussie coaster. I love the layout, intensity and pacing. If you've ridden one of the SLC's with these trains I am sure you would agree. I can not believe they are closing it, and it was never unpopular anyway. Another one bites the dust.

As I understand it, the control systems were the reason for the closure. As one of the earlier builds, they were outdated and too costly to update. Newer SLCs had updated systems and neither plays well with the other. That's my understanding anyway.

You are allowed to have a differing opinion, so apologies if my response have come across that way. You are definitely in the minority regarding buzz though - but I suppose if we all liked the same thing it'd be a pretty boring place. 

Fingers crossed you get your trip, and hopefully Magic Springs doesn't keep you from celebrating your 53rd milestone. (in other words, I hope you don't die).  

[pazzap]

5 hours ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

As I understand it, the control systems were the reason for the closure. As one of the earlier builds, they were outdated and too costly to update. Newer SLCs had updated systems and neither plays well with the other. That's my understanding anyway.

You are allowed to have a differing opinion, so apologies if my response have come across that way. You are definitely in the minority regarding buzz though - but I suppose if we all liked the same thing it'd be a pretty boring place. 

Fingers crossed you get your trip, and hopefully Magic Springs doesn't keep you from celebrating your 53rd milestone. (in other words, I hope you don't die).  

Thank you for that explanation. with LW/AA.. It's a pity, but it is what it is. If we get an RMC in its place I will be thrilled in any case. An RMC Raptor really is the right fit for that spot, it's like it was made for it. If Movie World decide to invest in another coaster, they really should look at RMC this time, as they have lost their only inverting coaster, and RMC provide a combination of inversions and airtime like no other, and a Raptor will FIT there, beautifully. I hope they do the right thing, as the solution is staring at them right in the face (of course relative to whatever their budget constraints are).

Absolutely no apologies needed, thank you.. I would hope we are all made of thicker skin than that.

It's probably me who needs to apologise, as I think I may have misrepresented myself regarding Buzzsaw.

If this was like the USA or EU with coasters and parks everywhere, I wouldn't care in the slightest. It's because of what it was up against to begin with, and that's where I rated it fairly highly. I am sick of us losing major rides and I just can't fathom the fact that TOT *and* BS were gone within a few years of each other. Yes, I'd have a much better time at DW if both were still there, and that includes after ST opens. Right now I would only go to DW for one ride, and that's ST. isn't that a bit sad? Giant Drop does nothing for me really as it hasn't got the force of the older gen Intamin towers. Pitfall/Space Probe 7 etc. I'd ride it, the flying theatre, and ST. that's it. But Id' only actually GO cause ST is there. I will NOT queue for MDMC/Madagascar/GC/ or any other DW ride currently. That's an expensive day out for 3 rides. (Actually, just realised, Pandemonium was down the day I went last, so, maybe that too).

Six Flags MM have tweaked Superman to go right up the tower and it's amazing backwards, why couldn't DW do the same? Just an example. I have never waited less than half hour for TOT even on a quiet weekday, it's not like nobody rode it.

Hey, if we get a skyrocket II in place of Buzzsaw, I will be THRILLED and say "heck, what was buzzsaw"? LOL. Just an example. It's just that we have so little to begin with and it hurts every time we lose something, well to me it does.

All kidding aside, as much as I dislike BD/Cyclone/HWS/GC, I honestly wouldn't want it demolished unless it was being directly replaced with a great custom coaster. Preferably an RMC Hybrid. Right now it serves a purpose to help dilute queue lines for other rides, and it looks nice at least, especially with the new colour scheme (finally)!

RE LPS and moving rides - do you actually think, for example, that the new BD would be that fun if it was at another park out in the open? It's clearly the weakest single rail coaster currently built, no ride is needed to tell me that. But it will still be fun cause of how it's been shoehorned to fit specifically into that spot at LPS, and the atmosphere around it. But honestly, tell me that's the first single rail design you'd choose for a major park - what will happen if the neighbours complain again and they can't get it quiet enough and need to sell their BD all over again? I don't think anyone would think it was an ideal ride for their park, other than LPS. (I would have rather RMC built something insane for that spot, and they could have done it, but I believe the Raptors are too noisy for LPS. But yeah, another topic entirely now LOL)..............

 

 

 

 

 

[pazzap]

18 hours ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

2015 it was unexpectedly shut down when the primary restraint system failed and the restraint was only held by the secondary safety system. Still safe, but not ideal - and while i'm sure there are cases out there, I have personally not heard of any others.

I didn't conveniently miss anything. Your primary statement was "waaaah, keep ride i like, get rid of ride I hate... or at least spend millions changing it to how I want it when it's already over 25 years old just because I said so".

 

They just poured money into a refresh and refurb of Gold Coaster. It is CLEARLY worth the additional investment for the expected additional life remaining. On the flip side - they're eating a $10M loss on Buzz - despite as you point out having loads of parts and spares - because it is clearly not a feasible decision. 

Yeah I didn't consider a single loop of track to be 'full' anything. But you do make a good point and i think the closest we can get to an answer is this coasterforce conversation that concluded it wasn't a full circuit or a shuttle but a 'hybrid'.

Full circuit shuttle coasters definition | FORUMS - COASTERFORCE

I would define a full circuit coaster as having several elements throughout the course. Buzzsaw has one. 

Let's break it down:

• Hangtime on the lift
• The lift is terrifying till you clear it
• Then you get an awesome shuttle section that leaves your guts at the top
• Not to mention the roll at the top
• upside down lift hill
• heartline roll (at the top)
• full speed shuttle section (on other coasters we call that "the first drop")

And you still want to tell me it's not a one-trick pony? Maybe try looking it up. It literally goes up, does a single twist, and comes down. And this board is FILLED with people describing buzz as PRECISELY that definition. So even if you still disagree, you're in the minority. 

Enjoy Magic Springs.

 

I am not going to continue to argue.. reprofiling the first drop of GC and using the current track to modify the layout a bit would cost  MILLIONS? Seriously?

And NO, the full speed shuttle section is not the "first drop".  It is actually  TWO large drops.  You are very condescending and sarcastic, so it's not really worth engaging with you further as you are some sort of admin here it seems, and it will go nowhere other than my ban. Say what you will. This is how I avoid personal conflict online and it's worked perfectly for 20 years. I just make a decision to ignore from a point onwards and stick to it.

I even question your maths with the 10M loss, but OK. LOL.

I'd take TOT and BS staying over GC any day. A thousand times over. I will not change my opinion on that. 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by pazzap

[Spotty]

Arkham / LW was basically ruined the moment that Kumbak came in and did the overhaul on the ride. I would have thought they would have learnt with Sea Viper's horrible transformation and the amount of issues they had with the ride.

Basically, Kumbak came in and patched over the original control system that Vekoma installed with the ride. This enabled individual seat unlocking instead of the whole train at once. This alone caused so many issues in the first 6 months or so of operation where it wouldn't be uncommon to see half the train out of action due to faults in the computer system. After a year or so, the faults became less common but it was still no where near as reliable as it should have been.

Village should have gone with Vekoma for the upgrade from the start, but fairly sure they got a deal with Kumbak after the Sea Viper disaster. The trains were heavier with all the new running gear, and also caused extra wear and tear on the ride. Also being the 4th SLC to open to the public, it was not built as well as some of the newer ones. I would love to see the ride reopen with Vekoma trains, as honestly it was one of my favourite rides in the park not just to operate but to ride.

[Baconjack]

2 hours ago, Spotty said:

Arkham / LW was basically ruined the moment that Kumbak came in and did the overhaul on the ride. I would have thought they would have learnt with Sea Viper's horrible transformation and the amount of issues they had with the ride.

Basically, Kumbak came in and patched over the original control system that Vekoma installed with the ride. This enabled individual seat unlocking instead of the whole train at once. This alone caused so many issues in the first 6 months or so of operation where it wouldn't be uncommon to see half the train out of action due to faults in the computer system. After a year or so, the faults became less common but it was still no where near as reliable as it should have been.

Village should have gone with Vekoma for the upgrade from the start, but fairly sure they got a deal with Kumbak after the Sea Viper disaster. The trains were heavier with all the new running gear, and also caused extra wear and tear on the ride. Also being the 4th SLC to open to the public, it was not built as well as some of the newer ones. I would love to see the ride reopen with Vekoma trains, as honestly it was one of my favourite rides in the park not just to operate but to ride.

I don't think Vekoma was offering new trains for SLC's at the time AA/LW was upgraded (correct me if I'm wrong) so Kumbak was the only option. Plus when Village made the deal I don't think they were aware with how much damage the trains did to Corkscrew at the time. After what happened with Corkscrew it was only a matter of time before something similar happened with AA.

Village jumped the gun with the upgrade if they waited a few more years but they seemingly were eager to integrate the ride with the DC area

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

First of all - your two posts here are replying to the same person. You've assured me on the one hand you have thicker skin but then returned to fly off the handle?

On 18/09/2021 at 8:35 AM, pazzap said:

it's not really worth engaging with you further as you are some sort of admin here it seems, and it will go nowhere other than my ban. Say what you will. This is how I avoid personal conflict online and it's worked perfectly for 20 years. I just make a decision to ignore from a point onwards and stick to it.

 

On 18/09/2021 at 5:59 AM, pazzap said:

Absolutely no apologies needed, thank you.. I would hope we are all made of thicker skin than that.

It's probably me who needs to apologise, as I think I may have misrepresented myself regarding Buzzsaw.

 

So let's just clear a few things up.

I'm not an admin. Parkz Crew is a member subscription. You support the site, you get a few extra forum features. 

You've been a member here since '04, and you've drifted in and out several times over the years - one would assume you've been paying at least some attention - you're not getting banned for disagreeing with moderators here - shit - i'd have been gone long ago if that was the case. 

On 18/09/2021 at 8:35 AM, pazzap said:

I even question your maths with the 10M loss, but OK. LOL.

As for the 10M loss - That's my bad as I thought it cost $10m and I should have checked. It cost $7M, so i'll just amend my original comment to a $7M loss.

Buzz never proved to be popular. It's fair to say they didn't get the return on investment they expected. They're selling it now - with extras - for around $250k. I'm sure it made them something back on their investment, but overall it wasn't profitable Especially given how much of it's operating life was spent closed.

(Fun fact - if you go over your previous posts, you'll find a post where you called for Buzzsaw to be removed when it was only 4 years old)

On 18/09/2021 at 8:35 AM, pazzap said:

I'd take TOT and BS staying over GC any day. A thousand times over. I will not change my opinion on that. 

And you're very much entitled to share that opinion, just as we are entitled to share ours. The facts however make out differently, and you cannot change that either. Buzz is gone and clearly wasn't worth staying (or it would have). TOT is gone and clearly wasn't worth staying (or it would have). Gold Coaster on the other hand IS staying for a bit longer, and clearly WAS worth staying - so it did... 

#Peace

[Gazza]

Vekoma put the new trains on Great Nor Easter at Moreys Piers in 2008 so they were definitely available.

[Jobe]

34 minutes ago, Gazza said:

Vekoma put the new trains on Great Nor Easter at Moreys Piers in 2008 so they were definitely available.

From what I have heard these trains have done amazing things for this SLC. The reveiws I have read have all pointed to how smooth the ride experience is and also zero headbanging or any issues that plague other SLC's. I guess it proves that the SLC layout is actually excellent- it never lets up for pacing- and that quality trains can make a huge difference. If Arkham had received these trains its likely Movieworld would be facing a different scenario to the situation it is now in with this ride.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Were those trains new from the ground up (or should I say the track down?) - The Kumbak trains used the same 'purple train' rolling stock in service from Lethal Weapon. 

Are the new Vekoma trains just replacement hangers \ seats \ harnesses? or was it brand new everything?

[Spotty]

19 hours ago, Baconjack said:

I don't think Vekoma was offering new trains for SLC's at the time AA/LW was upgraded (correct me if I'm wrong) so Kumbak was the only option. Plus when Village made the deal I don't think they were aware with how much damage the trains did to Corkscrew at the time. After what happened with Corkscrew it was only a matter of time before something similar happened with AA.

Village jumped the gun with the upgrade if they waited a few more years but they seemingly were eager to integrate the ride with the DC area

The new Vekoma trains were available from at least 2008 onwards (Possibly earlier) The Great Nor' Easter at Moreys Piers got them installed that year. So before the Sea Viper trains were even installed onto the Corkscrew, however the plans may have already been in the works.
 

Quote

Were those trains new from the ground up (or should I say the track down?) - The Kumbak trains used the same 'purple train' rolling stock in service from Lethal Weapon. 

Are the new Vekoma trains just replacement hangers \ seats \ harnesses? or was it brand new everything?

@DaptoFunlandGuy As far as I am aware the new Vekoma trains are a whole new unit, designed to be much lighter. https://www.thecoasterkings.com/the-secret-of-freedom-seats/ Has a bit more of an in depth read on the seats. One of the plusses with these new seats is they don't require the floor to be raised / lowered which will slightly increase dispatch time too. I also am fairly sure they worked with the old control system (which works more than fine, and didn't need upgrading but it was when the magnetic brakes and the very sensitive individual harness control came into play)

Village did look into them, but for whatever silly reason they went with Kumbak...

Edited September 20, 2021 by Spotty
Added more info

[Levithian]

22 hours ago, Spotty said:

Arkham / LW was basically ruined the moment that Kumbak came in and did the overhaul on the ride. I would have thought they would have learnt with Sea Viper's horrible transformation and the amount of issues they had with the ride.

Basically, Kumbak came in and patched over the original control system that Vekoma installed with the ride. This enabled individual seat unlocking instead of the whole train at once. This alone caused so many issues in the first 6 months or so of operation where it wouldn't be uncommon to see half the train out of action due to faults in the computer system. After a year or so, the faults became less common but it was still no where near as reliable as it should have been.

Village should have gone with Vekoma for the upgrade from the start, but fairly sure they got a deal with Kumbak after the Sea Viper disaster. The trains were heavier with all the new running gear, and also caused extra wear and tear on the ride. Also being the 4th SLC to open to the public, it was not built as well as some of the newer ones. I would love to see the ride reopen with Vekoma trains, as honestly it was one of my favourite rides in the park not just to operate but to ride.

 The top of the train was original, they only replaced the bottom hangers and seats. Id like to know why you think it was heavier though, the kumback design was more compact than the original frame. What is the added wear and tear too? it ran for 7 years with the upgraded trains, that would tend to suggest it was pretty reliable. The fact the control system hadn't been upgraded, and the new 10 yearly requirement the government created after dreamworld is what spelled the death of Arkham I was told. It needed a complete overhaul and they decided it would cost too much money vs the age of the ride. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Levithian

[Spotty]

2 minutes ago, Levithian said:

 The top of the train was original, they only replaced the bottom hangers and seats. Id like to know why you think it was heavier though, the kumback design was more compact than the original frame. What is the added wear and tear too? it ran for 7 years with the upgraded trains, that would tend to suggest it was pretty reliable. The fact the control system hadn't been upgraded, and the new 10 yearly requirement the government created after dreamworld is what spelled the death of Arkham I was told. It needed a complete overhaul and they decided it would cost too much money vs the age of the ride. 

As someone who worked on the ride fairly often, I can tell you that the new seats were actually heavier than the original LW rolling stock. The ratcheting system of the old harnesses is actually very lightweight compared to a hydraulic system that the new harnesses used. The 10 year requirement also does not apply to the control system as it was fully working and didn't need work. The ride has been closed due to cost cutting mostly, it does need some quite heavy work (as most rides approaching 25-30 years do) especially as it's very forceful compared to say the Gold Coaster who's track would be in much better condition given it hasn't operated as much as Arkham and isn't as forceful.

Basically the government requires a full strip down of all moving parts on the ride, and high stress parts of the track (The entrance to the Sidewinder in particular) would possibly need replacing after 25 years. Movie World have decided that it's not worth doing, which is a shame because the SLC has a damn great layout, and with the work done to it and better rolling stock the ride still could easily have another 10+ years in it. 

Although in the last 2 years of operation it was certainly running very infrequently, I don't think for what they spent on the overhaul they got the best value for their money at all.

[Levithian]

It does apply to the control system, it's the entire ride, not just mechanicals. Why do you think rides like Scooby Doo, Wild west falls and just recently Road Runner got a complete upgrade? Road runner for example could have gotten new trains without updating all the controls and wiring. 

What cost cutting do you think was going on? and what did you think was damaged on arkham?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Levithian

[Spotty]

17 minutes ago, Levithian said:

It does apply to the control system, it's the entire ride, not just mechanicals. Why do you think rides like Scooby Doo, Wild west falls and just recently Road Runner got a complete upgrade? Road runner for example could have gotten new trains without updating all the controls and wiring. 

What cost cutting do you think was going on? and what did you think was damaged on arkham?

Scooby didn't get a whole new control system added to the ride, it was a cosmetic overhaul and some theming changes to ensure that it met the new fire standards. Road runner got new trains because the ride was 20 years old, and a common complaint was that adults didn't feel that their children were secure due to the 1 lap bar. Hence the seatbelts were added as a temp measure until the new trains were ordered. At this point in time, they decided they may as well update the entire ride.

I know many rides that have fallen victim to this new 10 year thing that has been implemented across the industry and it has NOT required a re-build of the entire control system, if you are able to show where it states that I am happy to be proven wrong.

As far as cost cutting goes, I'm talking about recently by deciding not to do the work on Arkham. The parks have lost a lot of money due to COVID. They were looking at keeping Arkham going, but with the uncertainty still with the pandemic they have decided not to spend the extra money which is a fair decision given the rides age. It's not the choice I would have personally made, but it's the choice they have made to save money which is a given with the economic climate right now.

As far as damage goes, towards the end of it's run there were certain areas that were being looked at more than others for stress in the track. I'm not at liberty to go into extensive details into the maintenance side of things, but those Kumbak trains did more damage than they did good. Several other parks have actually removed their Kumbak trains for similar reasons (Efteling did the same with Python, and replaced it with the much better Vekoma trains seen on Gold Coaster). Those cars ripped the crap out of the track on the Corkscrew at Sea World too.

[Levithian]

It did get a system upgrade. Road runner didnt just get new trains, it was completely overhauled. Including the control system. Same with west. 
 

[Spotty]

2 minutes ago, Levithian said:

It did get a system upgrade. Road runner didnt just get new trains, it was completely overhauled. Including the control system. Same with west. 
 

You were saying Scooby got a new control system, I have on very high regard that Scooby didn't get a new ride control system. It did receive an upgrade to the show control though. I am aware that West got a new control system in 2017 and is rumoured to be getting new boats as well. I never said that Road Runner didn't get a new system either. As far as I am aware the brakes on Road Runner have been replaced with magnetic brakes (not confirmed) which would have required an update to the control system.

In regards to the 10 year overhaul, I've had a look into it on QLD Worksafe it doesn't require an upgrade of the control system.

"

Under AS 3533.3-2003 – Amusement rides and devices Part 3: In-service inspection, a major inspection includes attention to the following:

• structural, mechanical, electrical, instrumentation, control and operational anomalies

• non-destructive testing (NDT) to an appropriate standard

• controls and emergency stops

• braking systems

• manufacturer’s safety upgrades and advice

• adequacy of safety instructions and manuals

• the viability of upgrading to the requirements of the latest standard [AS 3533.3-2003 Clause

  11.5].

And 

0. Under AS 3533.3-2003, a major inspection involves:

   • the disassembly of critical components of the amusement device and removal of paint,

     grease and corrosion to allow a complete and thorough inspection

   • detailed visual inspection and tolerance checking of all wear components

   • thickness testing as required to check for wear and corrosion

   • non-destructive testing of all critical areas for signs of cracking or spalling due to fatigue or

     excessive stress

   •  a review of power, control, electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic systems, as applicable to the device [AS 3533.3-2003 Clause 11.5].

So unless there was a major fault with the control system or critical issues there was / is no need to replace the entire system after the 10 year mark as implied.

 

 

[Will S]

Wow this thread has gone off topic 

[Levithian]

29 minutes ago, Spotty said:

You were saying Scooby got a new control system, I have on very high regard that Scooby didn't get a new ride control system. It did receive an upgrade to the show control though. I am aware that West got a new control system in 2017 and is rumoured to be getting new boats as well. I never said that Road Runner didn't get a new system either. As far as I am aware the brakes on Road Runner have been replaced with magnetic brakes (not confirmed) which would have required an update to the control system.

In regards to the 10 year overhaul, I've had a look into it on QLD Worksafe it doesn't require an upgrade of the control system.

"

Under AS 3533.3-2003 – Amusement rides and devices Part 3: In-service inspection, a major inspection includes attention to the following:

• structural, mechanical, electrical, instrumentation, control and operational anomalies

• non-destructive testing (NDT) to an appropriate standard

• controls and emergency stops

• braking systems

• manufacturer’s safety upgrades and advice

• adequacy of safety instructions and manuals

• the viability of upgrading to the requirements of the latest standard [AS 3533.3-2003 Clause

  11.5].

And 

0. Under AS 3533.3-2003, a major inspection involves:

   • the disassembly of critical components of the amusement device and removal of paint,

     grease and corrosion to allow a complete and thorough inspection

   • detailed visual inspection and tolerance checking of all wear components

   • thickness testing as required to check for wear and corrosion

   • non-destructive testing of all critical areas for signs of cracking or spalling due to fatigue or

     excessive stress

   •  a review of power, control, electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic systems, as applicable to the device [AS 3533.3-2003 Clause 11.5].

So unless there was a major fault with the control system or critical issues there was / is no need to replace the entire system after the 10 year mark as implied.

 

 

No, I said the 10 yearly applied to everything, including control systems too. I didn't say scooby doo got a new control system, only that it was upgraded like west. Road runner is entirely new. These were due to audits and inspections as part of the newly created 10 yearly.

Just on the SLC upgrades, vekoma used the original wheel carriers and replaced the hangers and restraints like kumbak did for their SLC upgrades. They simply didn't have a replacement and you'll find the upgraded SLC's and the later built ones with the vest restraints still use the old design. It wasn't until their next generation trains came along for their suspended thrill and family coasters that the wheel carrier design changed. Now I believe they are offering complete upgrades using STC trains and offering retracking services for companies that might want to smooth out any alignment issues. Nor’easter didn't just get their upgraded SLC restraints, it also had sections of track replaced about 5 years ago, which is the reason it is so smooth. Vekoma restraints or kumbak, they just remove the head banging of the OTR's, but they weren't a recipe to increase the smoothness. That's a whole different issue around design and a few maintenance related problems that see them run really rough. 

As above though, this is pretty off topic. You don't really "lose" money on rides, they depreciate till they are basically worthless in terms of capital. So selling something cheap isn't really as clear cut as that. You have to factor in removal costs, shipping, construction, etc, plus just how badly you might want to move on a ride in order to set a price. You'd think they would have a pretty good reason to want buzzsaw gone though, even if it was just because it might be difficult to maintain/service/support.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Levithian