Jamberoo Fan

Thunder River Rapids Incident Coronial Inquest

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27 minutes ago, AlexB said:

I don't think a name change is necessary. Perhaps an addendum (as a gross example, if Six Flags were to purchase they'd tack the SF onto the name) but i don't think Dreamworld as a brand has been destroyed. Ardent certainly has been hit, but much of the negative reporting has identified Ardent as the operator of the park, who has not done \ not said \ not implemented etc etc.

Dreamworld's identity isn't getting the thrashing that Ardent is, and for that I think if Ardent sells, and sells publicly, confidence in the new operator with a good track record will be restored. For this reason it has to be someone with experience. It cannot be some random consortium looking to add a jewel to their portfolio for a bargain.

Fair points!

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here's the latest from news.com.au:

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/dreamworld-staffer-didnt-know-first-aid-an-inquest-has-heard/news-story/d7157c7aad8cbfc4637cb7c5dbe0337e

Quote

Dreamworld staffer didn’t know first aid, an inquest has heard

A RIDE operator working on the Dreamworld attraction which malfunctioned leading to the deaths of four guests did not know first aid, an inquest has heard.

A RIDE operator working on the Dreamworld attraction which malfunctioned leading to the deaths of four guests in October 2016 did not know first aid.

Peter Nemeth told an inquest at the Southport Coroners Court on Wednesday he hadn’t been trained in first aid or CPR.

Mr Nemeth was the main ride operator of the Thunder River Rapids ride when Cindy Low, Kate Goodchild, her brother Luke Dorsett and his partner Roozi Araghi died at the Gold Coast theme park after being thrown from a raft.

Under cross-examination, Mr Nemeth revealed he did not know first aid nor had he received any specialist training for large-scale emergencies.

Barrister Michael Hickey, representing Ms Low’s family, asked: “Were you trained in any way in rescuing passengers who might become trapped on the ride?”

“No,” Mr Nemeth replied.

A safety record for the ride produced at the inquest showed ride operators had indicated the attraction’s first aid kit was not fully stocked from October 18 to 23, 2016.

“Most of the items were there, it was usually the number of bandaids,” Mr Nemeth said.

“I’m speculating because that was the usual occurrence.” The other ride operator at the time of the tragedy, Courtney Williams, is also expected to give evidence on Wednesday.

 

The inquest heard on Tuesday that Ms Williams had only been trained on her role for the attraction on the morning of the tragedy.

For fuck's sake.

On the one hand, he's been referred to as 'one of dreamworld's top 10' operators, and really, I would expect the park would give some training to certain roles, but at the end of the day - its typical for a lifeguard at a waterpark to do first aid - mainly for the CPR aspect due to the drowning risk, but on theme park rides? I don't have an expectation that every ride op and loader is going to know first aid. the park has a first aid room \ staff member on duty who can respond wherever needed...

but let's be real (and I apologise for the coarseness of this) - knowing first aid, or knowing how to rescue somebody trapped on a ride wouldn't have changed the outcome here.

These operators have a lot of things to learn, remember, and do. I manage two different teams of first aiders - one in an office, and one in emergency response - and the number of responders that tunnel vision on a bleed and ignore the situation outside the wound is phenomenal. In a serious incident I want the operator making the ride safe, and calling the cavalry. I don't want them dashing off gallantly trying to save people before the scene has been made safe... it just has a habit of producing more casualties.

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I certainly wouldn't expect every ride operator to know first aid, and I doubt that's the case at any theme park. As Alex said, that's why all parks I know (including Dreamworld) have dedicated first aiders (and sometimes even nurses), as well as security officers who are also qualified first aiders.

All ride operators need to know is how to identify straight away there is a safety issue, and how to very quickly shut down the ride, and call the above mentioned people for assistance.

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8 minutes ago, AlexB said:

here's the latest from news.com.au:

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/dreamworld-staffer-didnt-know-first-aid-an-inquest-has-heard/news-story/d7157c7aad8cbfc4637cb7c5dbe0337e

For fuck's sake.

On the one hand, he's been referred to as 'one of dreamworld's top 10' operators, and really, I would expect the park would give some training to certain roles, but at the end of the day - its typical for a lifeguard at a waterpark to do first aid - mainly for the CPR aspect due to the drowning risk, but on theme park rides? I don't have an expectation that every ride op and loader is going to know first aid. the park has a first aid room \ staff member on duty who can respond wherever needed...

but let's be real (and I apologise for the coarseness of this) - knowing first aid, or knowing how to rescue somebody trapped on a ride wouldn't have changed the outcome here.

These operators have a lot of things to learn, remember, and do. I manage two different teams of first aiders - one in an office, and one in emergency response - and the number of responders that tunnel vision on a bleed and ignore the situation outside the wound is phenomenal. In a serious incident I want the operator making the ride safe, and calling the cavalry. I don't want them dashing off gallantly trying to save people before the scene has been made safe... it just has a habit of producing more casualties.

I totally agree. I am the backup first aider in my office and am also the floor fire warden. The chief fire warden is the main first aid person. My duty (in an emergency when we need to evacuate) is firstly getting everyone on my floor out to safety, and then attending to them medically. Totally agree that the ride operator here did the right thing by making sure the ride, and other people nearby were safe, rather than jumping into the water to try and save the victims.

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8 minutes ago, Jessicajealousy said:

I totally agree. I am the backup first aider in my office and am also the floor fire warden. The chief fire warden is the main first aid person. My duty (in an emergency when we need to evacuate) is firstly getting everyone on my floor out to safety, and then attending to them medically.

That actually scares me a little bit.... in my office, our chief, fire and floor wardens cannot also be first aiders. In a fire\evac situation, our first aiders establish a triage point outside, whilst the wardens are clearing the building. If our wardens did first aid, there'd be a huge delay getting treatment to injured persons.

Just now, Skeeta said:

Let's be honest here.  Somebody who completes a basic First Aid course 4 year ago and never puts it into practice is going to be shit at it in a emergency.

Regardless, they'd be better than someone who has done no training at all.

Any aid is better than none... but that doesn't mean every ride op, loader, grouper, greeter, loose items inspector and fairy floss vendor should be trained in first aid. Perhaps it should be a requirement of operators to reach a certain level... and it should then be practiced in drills regularly - at least every 3 months on a small scale, and annually involving a large scale response (*prior to park opening hours of course)

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1 minute ago, AlexB said:

That actually scares me a little bit.... in my office, our chief, fire and floor wardens cannot also be first aiders. In a fire\evac situation, our first aiders establish a triage point outside, whilst the wardens are clearing the building. If our wardens did first aid, there'd be a huge delay getting treatment to injured persons.

Regardless, they'd be better than someone who has done no training at all.

Any aid is better than none... but that doesn't mean every ride op, loader, grouper, greeter, loose items inspector and fairy floss vendor should be trained in first aid. Perhaps it should be a requirement of operators to reach a certain level... and it should then be practiced in drills regularly - at least every 3 months on a small scale, and annually involving a large scale response (*prior to park opening hours of course)

Don't disagree with you. Don't plan on being in this job for much longer, so not of huge concern to me. Our company owns the building (6 floors) and there are only 8 staff in our office anyway.

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Whilst I wouldn’t expect all ride ops to be first aid trained, I would have made an assumption that senior ride ops operating water based rides would have CPR training as a minimum, and that’s a fair expectation imo... 

Ok this is just strange now... 

3pm news on the radio just said that the senior operator has now admitted he didn’t even hit the emergency stop button “because there wasn’t time”... 

 

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1 hour ago, Skeeta said:

Unless the person administrating CPR blows the patient’s lungs out, which I have seen happen.

https://depts.washington.edu/learncpr/askdoctor.html

When performing CPR, how do I know if it's working? You can tell if the chest rises with ventilation. It is hard to determine if the chest compression results in a pulse. Do the best you can and don't stop. It's better to perform CPR imperfectly than not at all.

Can I kill someone if I do CPR incorrectly? No. Remember the person in cardiac arrest is already clinically dead. CPR can only help. Even if it's not done "letter perfect" it will probably provide some benefit to the victim.

Reading ahead, these guys still recommend the Heimlich maneuver for choking - so perhaps another resource?

https://resus.org.au/

The Australian Resuscitation Council. I'm not going to quote anything here because a screenshot of the front page of their website will do far better...

image.thumb.png.61d70dac2f91075e6b27983de17b9020.png

Whilst the ARC, along with the NZRC who together form ANZCOR do stipulate that care should be taken not to over inflate the person's lungs, they all say the same thing - if a person is in need of CPR, they are already in mortal danger, and restoring breathing and circulation is the primary concern over any other risk of injury.

44 minutes ago, joel said:

Don’t know if anyone has seen, but the giant drop has oxygen bottles and mask. Now how many of the staff who operate GD know how to use them?

As a minimum, you'd need advanced resuscitation or occupational first aid to administer oxygen. Your run of the mill "senior first aid" (also referred to as Apply first aid or Provide First Aid depending on how recently you did your course) course won't qualify you to do this. Oxygen is classed as a drug. The staff on duty in the first aid room should carry an occupational (or higher) first aid qualification, enabling them to administer oxygen. The park should have at least one person with this qualification or higher simply because they have a first aid room, and have a large number of people on site.

Having the bottles there (if true) is likely based on a risk assessment - the experience on that ride can literally take your breath away, and it seems smart to have it positioned there if that is the case.

I've never seen it myself personally though so i await some sort of photograph or similar...

 

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10 minutes ago, Brad2912 said:

3pm news on the radio just said that the senior operator has now admitted he didn’t even hit the emergency stop button “because there wasn’t time”... 

 

They're talking about the second button on top of the hill.

dfdfdfdfdfdf.JPG.b1bd8f921416154ae5687e439a2d3d4b.JPG

2 minutes ago, AlexB said:

Can I kill someone if I do CPR incorrectly? No.

 

 

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.   I’ve been volunteer for marine rescue since I was 18 and in the last 6 years a first responder for marine rescue trained by the Queensland ambulance & QUT.  I went to a job 4 years ago where a father’s CPR killed his baby while he performed CPR. 

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Little different with a baby as if your compressions are done with your palm instead of using 2 fingers you can easily break their ribs which can cause severe internal injuries, or if you blow into their lungs rather than puff you can overinflated & burst their lungs.

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46 minutes ago, Brad2912 said:

Whilst I wouldn’t expect all ride ops to be first aid trained, I would have made an assumption that senior ride ops operating water based rides would have CPR training as a minimum, and that’s a fair expectation imo... 

Ok this is just strange now... 

3pm news on the radio just said that the senior operator has now admitted he didn’t even hit the emergency stop button “because there wasn’t time”... 

 

At the unload point

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Much of the third day of the inquest into their deaths, being held at Southport Courthouse, considered the timing and sequence which level-three ride operator Peter Nemeth pushed the eight-second emergency stop button after seeing the water level had dropped on the ride.

The inquest heard Mr Nemeth saw the water level was low and went into the control room to press the slow-stop button in an attempt to stop the conveyor belt on the ride, but it did not work.

He returned to help unload passengers from a raft before going back and hitting the button about three more times when he saw two rafts were about to collide, moments before the fatal accident, as the conveyor belt had not stopped.

Under cross-examination by barrister Craig Eberhardt, for Ardent Group safety manager Angus Hutchings, Mr Nemeth conceded he did not press the two-second emergency stop button at the unload end of the ride, despite being the senior person in charge on the day of the fatal disaster.

He asked if there was a reason the ride operator didn’t race over and press the button.

“If I had a bit more time I could have done that I think... you’re speculating how many seconds... I don’t know if I could have done that,” Mr Nemeth replied.

Mr Nemeth later said there would not have been enough time to run the 10m to the unload area and press the button.

“You didn’t even try did you?” Mr Eberhardt asked.

“No, I didn’t try.”

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@Brad2912 I don't thing people are getting my point.  

You have a person who is already panicked and under extreme pressure fumbling task his has done for years and you want to add the extra pressure of which CPR technique to use when he can’t even remember which button to push.

image.png.693860f92850516aacde7df29d135fcb.png

 

27 minutes ago, Brad2912 said:

Little different with a baby

Are you saying if a baby at DW requires CPR a First Aid trained ride attendant won't preform CPR because it's a baby?

 

Edited by Skeeta

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No, I’m saying it is more possible to cause harm performing CPR on a baby than it is on an adult.

It Would be near impossible to cause “more” damage to an adult by stuffing up cpr than not trying at all, whereas doing cpr on a baby/young infant you need to make sure you know what you are doing, 

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44 minutes ago, Skeeta said:

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.   I’ve been volunteer for marine rescue since I was 18 and in the last 6 years a first responder for marine rescue trained by the Queensland ambulance & QUT.  I went to a job 4 years ago where a father’s CPR killed his baby while he performed CPR. 

 

Coastguard or VMR? It doesn't matter either way, just curious which set of guidelines you work under.

11 minutes ago, Skeeta said:

@AlexB said you can't kill someone.  Is a baby someone @Brad2912?

YOU CAN'T KILL SOMEONE WHO IS ALREADY DEAD.

If a person requires CPR, this means that they are unconscious, and they are either not breathing, or not breathing effectively (uncontrollable gasping for example).

If you do nothing, they will die. If you attempt something, you might save them. You might not. But you can't kill them twice... so it is better to try.

In Australia, the authority on the appropriate CPR to administer, which is what dictates the course content to ASQA, and therefore what dictates what is taught within first aid and CPR courses by RTOs nationwide, is the Australian Resuscitation Council, and its pretty hard to bullshit bullshit bullshit your way out of a banner quote on the front page of their website.

Skeet - you and I disagree on things from time to time. I have a lot of respect for your background, even though I don't know you, and only pick up on the 'vibe' of things you're involved in. I've gone toe to toe with you on many subjects and i've lost some of those and been proven wrong, at which point i'll gladly admit it - but you are never going to convince me on this point. You can't kill someone if you perform CPR on them incorrectly - because without your intervention they will certainly die.

With CPR, even professional, qualified, textbook CPR, your chances of survival only increase from 0% to roughly 3-5%. If this father you talk of was told he 'killed his baby' by attempting CPR, whomever did so deserves to be drowned. Clearly that baby was unconscious and not breathing. Without defibrillation, that baby had, at best, a 5% chance of survival (defib would have been up to 70%). TO tell this father that in his efforts to help, he caused that childs death is disgusting. Even if he'd done it properly, there's no way of saying the child could have survived.

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